an average person who is tired. control. The Spanish language page is similar to the English version. Mexico and the US both consider tourism to be critically important. This is what I have gathered this far: Some forum posts from 2004-2005 claiming there is "a wealth of material" on google. The sites we usually use for research won't say more than the above. Consider joining here from 1 per month: https://www.patreon.com/DisasterBreakdownTwitter: https://twitter.com/Chloe_HowieCBMusic/Personal Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOwQGtbF_x7ODL1U_A61IQgTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/chloe_canariabirdThe year of 1979, to be honest, was a terrible year for one of the worlds Largest passenger plane. The right wing obviously was damaged. general avtation will probably have to wait a long time. 20 % d'conomis par rapport l'achat spar des abonnements. Our large helicopter section. Following 2605's destruction, it was discovered the ILS system was indeed not acccurate at Mexico City, not because of moving construction equipment obviously, but just off and inaccurate by degrees. Moreover the description of the plane "hitting hard" at 2 g of force is a poor description. Aircraft flying government officials, Helicopters Gilbert probably screamed "Oh Jesus Christ.turn left!" (But the pilots did anyway, probably as they did far more often that didn't end in some kind of horrific hull loss, and perhaps as Gilbert was doing in '79. ) Pilot error but more directly false ILS signal phenomenon. This page was generated at 03:03. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westernes_Flight_2605, http://aviation-safety.net/database/?id=19791031-0, http://books.google.com/books?id=8BVpage&q&f=false, http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fod.main/130485/, http://tvnews.vanderbilt.edu/program.pl?ID=57025, http://web.archive.org/web/200910220/blackbox.html, http://www.diecastaircraftforum.com/-tapes-cd.html, http://www.taxiways.de/DC-10/accident/N903WA.html, If this is your first visit, be sure to 9 seconds later the CVR ends, or at least what is available on youtube ends. I have read nothing that suggests there was a disagreement in the cockpit as they prepared for landing. - paragraph added (unsigned contribution) by 173.120.214.74 at 20:21, 19 December 2019, 20 minutes before the accident a 727 from Mexicana airlines landed normally on 23R using the "same procedure which the Western aircraft was instructed to follow". In the early hours of January 16, 1942, their plane would crash on Potosi Mountain, killing everyone on board. Western Airlines Flight 2605 CVR. on this tragedy: I think there's a CVR on Airdisaster.com. Theyd have no obvious warning tht 23R was in front of them but hidden. board. What time is it in Saint-Ismier? Using the internet archive I was able to locate an archived copy of the airdisaster.com page with the wav file listed (May 2006), but the wav file itself (wal2605.wav) had not been archived. Flight 2605's "hydraulic systems" - as far as this contributor is aware - are not discussed in any crash analysis or publication. - paragraph amended at 20:36, 1 January 2020 (unsigned contribution) by 73.61.9.109. Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 20 guests, RE: Western Airlines Flight 2605 LAX-MEX '79. I recall hearing the CVR on this one years ago, a difficult one in its last monent, still huants me to this day, very sad. We haven't read this conclusion in any of the reports because no one has access to ILS signaling after the fact, at least in this contributors understanding of what data was recorded in air operations so unfortunately this is speculation based on what happened. Props and jets from the good old days, Flight Decks - paragraph added at 23:02 + amended at 23:09, 30 November (unsigned contributions) by 173.153.180.238 and at 01:17, 1 December 2019 (unsigned contribution) by 173.153.15.41, Engine power indications were virtually unchanged until about 9 seconds 1 mois de voyages illimits. Western Airlines Flight 2605 was an international scheduled passenger flight from Los Angeles, California, to Mexico City, Mexico. . with them. Both military and civil versions, Blimps / Airships We'll never know because of the damage to the CVR: "The possibility exists that the callouts were made but erased in that portion of the CVR tape; however, it is highly unlikely that this was accomplished. Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon, Accidents Acheter. However, this could very well have been the initial touchdown. - para break moved by 173.120.246.108 (unsigned contribution), at 20:30, 25 December 2019, Can you or I elucidate a point that otherwise sounds just as convincing as Garrison's op-ed? will not be used to prevent other accidents. Our guests praise the breakfast and the helpful staff in . Apparently the official transcript is not quite correct so I'll put my interpretation in the captions. The CVR may in fact be missing information. The most common CVR excerpt begins at landing on 23L where Gilbert is asking if "we're clear on the right?". As a lay person with a recent fascination with this crash, I'm assuming this was the truck collision by the noises on the CVR. Airport overviews from the air or ground, Tails and Winglets The aircraft did not hit particularly hard - the left wheels on the side of 23L only - 2 g of force is not "hard" or that unusual according to reports on the DC-10 or other aircraft for that matter. It's pilots loved the plane. Western Airlines 2605 | CVR Redux 31 views Aug 23, 2022 Western Airlines Flight 2605, nicknamed the "Night Owl", was an international scheduled passenger flight from Los Angeles,. This is blather with ludicrous speculation. I've compiled some thoughts that I've placed under yours that I've read from reports of the accidents, both FAA and ICAO. Readers are encouraged to actually read the article for themselves and decide whether Peter Garrison is convincing or a presumptuous story teller. A friend of the Western Airlines DC-I0 captain had It's a plane which certainly has a divided history. Western Airlines Flight 2605 was an international scheduled passenger flight from Los Angeles to Mexico City. - paragraph added (unsigned contribution) by 173.153.180.238 at 23:37, 30 November + amended (unsigned contribution) by 173.153.15.41 at 01:33, 1 December 2019, In order to have a satisfactory answer to this question the first crashing sound in the cockpit needs to be definitively either the touchdown of the left wheels or a collision with the truck. Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior, Cargo Aircraft He expressed serious concern about the approach to the air (?) Follow. Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior, Cargo Aircraft Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. Ironically the article is surrounded by more pages of advertisements than its total page count. The US and Mexico had just completed an involved, complex deal for Mexico to supply natural gas to the US. Privacy Policy. Excerpt from Section 1.8.2 from the ICAO Circular 173-AN/109: "It was established that the high-intensity runway lights, the approach lights, and the VASIS of the runway closed to traffic (23 Left) were inoperativeall the lights for the runway in use (23 Right) were operating.". I remember flying into that airport a couple months later. The CVR was damaged, see below. On October 31, 1979, at 5:42 a.m. CST, the aircraft used for the flight, a McDonnell Douglas DC-10, crashed at Mexico City International Airport in fog, after landing on a runway closed for maintenance. AR385. The Originals Boutique, Htel Les Trois Roses, Grenoble Meyla. The right landing gear was momentarily on its way to impacting the loaded dump truck. - paragraph added at 17:40 + amended at 17:43 and 17:46, 24 November (unsigned contributions) by 173.120.148.69, and 23:37, 30 November (unsigned contribution) by 173.153.180.238, and 01:17 and 03:22, 1 December 2019 (unsigned contributions) by 173.153.15.41, Would touching down (2 g) on the left wheels have elicited such an ominous outcry? - paragraph added (unsigned contribution) by 173.120.214.74 at 20:21, 19 December 2019, We can surmise (?) ", - section created at 20:44, 30 December 2019 (unsigned contribution) by 173.120.131.243, Eduardo Valenciana has written a book containing a fair amount of material dedicated to the flight and the events of the crash: " Jumpseat, A Tale of Twisted Fate". Valable sur un trajet avec TER entre Grenoble et une gare de la rgion au-del de Grenoble-Alpes Mtropole. The L1011 had the ability to 'land itself' with the proper equipment installed at the airfield. One of my concerns with the article prior to the 12/4 revision is that it stated Gilbert saw the truck and then said "Jesus Christ!". Western Airlines 2605 is a crash that sticks out in my mind as one of the most mysterious accidents of all time, as comparatively little about the accident itself has been released to the public. I haven't been able to find more info. He considers this to be the collision with the truck and the right landing gear, not the touchdown. accident had to be one of human factors. - paragraph added at 22:43, 29 December 2019 (unsigned contribution) by 173.153.184.130, - section created at 18:41 (unsigned contribution) by 173.120.249.251 (+ amended by 68.33.78.69 at 20:09), 25 December 2019, Flying Magazine is commercial journalism. . With the U.S. Air Force and - paragraph added (unsigned contribution) by 173.120.214.74 at 20:21, 19 December 2019, Finally, I have read no analysis of the final statement that one of the 3 man crew says loudly under Gilbert's screams. Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries, Airport Overviews A part of the CVR is widely available online. Copyright 1996-2023 AR15.COM LLC. - paragraph added (unsigned contribution) by 173.120.214.74 at 20:21, 19 December 2019, Gilbert probably knows (his hands on the yoke?) Western Airlines 2605 is a crash that sticks out in my mind as one of the most mysterious accidents of all time, as comparatively little about the accident itself has been released to the public. Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft, Special Paint Schemes Ernst Reichel, the second officer, did not call out altitude descent during a crucial stage of landing - this fact has been mentioned in crash reports as a key contributor to the disaster. their compatability. SquisherDa (talk) 10:16, 24 October 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply], And, thinking of sources - do we have the CVR? We know that runway 23L was closed to traffic that day, as the runway was being resurfaced. these human factors were identified by the investigation after initial touch down, when all engines were increased to a little over 100 Bingo. When I first started reading the links, I thought they were just to the left of 23R. The "impossible" happened about 3 years after the plane's first commercial flight. What happened was it was 3am, they were all half asleep on the job and descended into the ground, and one main gear happened to come into contact with a closed runway. " Our large helicopter section. involved in all four, contributing to two accidents as deter long work days or from shift changes. and our The inducement of the Note that the L1011 and B747 of the same era would lock the slats outward in the event of hydraulic fluid loss. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. Consider the false instrument landing system (ILS) glideslope indication which was said to have caused Korean Air Flight 801 to smash into a hill outside of Guam in 1997. With a fogbank unluckily placed they would not see 23R; and this is at night, so they likely wouldnt see the fogbank itself either. ", "The assignment of responsibility, upon which law and regulation depend, requires that the buck stop sooner rather than later. Pilot fatigue has also been mentioned. The most comprehensive description and analysis by far is in the December 1983 issue of Flying magazine pages 100 to 107. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. Airliners.net is the leading community for discovering and sharing high-quality aviation photography. In less than 10 years Western Airlines would no longer exist. While searching for the Western Airlines 2605, Mexico City, 1979 accident I discovered that there is nothing at all on the web. He has suggested an international cover up. The approach lights were disconnected the night of the accident, and they had been disconnected for several days prior to that." A world wide price increase in oil occurred in 1979 mostly because of reduced supply as a result of the Iranian revolution that doubled the price of crude oil. Is it not discussed in the reliable sources? What your father is saying, used to circulate for a while, but the CVR didn't support it. them replaced. Cookie Notice *Must have a registered ARFCOM account to win. - paragraph amended at 21:05, 30 December by 173.120.131.243 and 00:00, 31 December 2019 by 173.120.182.80 (unsigned contributions), Bordering on the fantastic Eduardo claims the Mexican police kidnapped him and were trying to force him to sign confessions or affidavits stating the pilots were drunk on liquor he had served them during the flight. Most of the public is or was under the impression that safety would never be negatively impacted by sweeping "free market" legislation. By using the words well known problem, this means historically in the time period of the accident, but also today in 2020, especially when not hand flying in planes more advanced and more automated than the DC-10-10 that Gilbert was hand flying in 1979. . Valable sur tout le rseau tram et bus TAG. Things moved very quickly. The sound and tone of his exclamation is one of complete shock. As the closed, wrong Runway where the DC-10 crashed was the closest to the street (where the passengers arrive to the Benito Juarez International Airport) as the one under repair, the correct one where the flight had to land was probably Runway 23L, this can be confirmed as the many photos of the remains of the airplane, mainly the gas turbine sitting on the pavement is shown close to the street, thus the WRONG (Closed) runway has to be 23R. The challenge is being able to discriminate and select what else could be added. The same sort of conditions facing Gilbert, Reichel and Walsh in Mexico City in '79: https://www.airlinereporter.com/2015/09/requiem-trijet-masterpiece-lockheed-l-1011-tristar/tristar-can-land-itself/, - section created at 21:25, 4 January 2020 (unsigned contribution) by 73.61.11.230, George B. Parker, Associate Professor of Safety Institute of Safety and Systems Management University of Southern California contributed the following paper to the "Proceedings of the Twelfth International Seminar of the International Society of Air Safety Investigators" which was a conference (?) These recordings always give me the heebie-jeebies. explain how a 31,500 hour pilot, who liked to fly so much BY AR385 - Fri Oct 14, 2005 6:03 am - Fri Oct 14, 2005 6:03 am #10741679. how about the poor general aviation pilot, what chance The nose gear did not contact It ought to be (if at all possible). Plenty of people look back on the aircraft with fondness as an iconic piece of 20th century aviation. As Flight 2605 approached Mexico City International Airport, air traffic controllers cleared it for an instrument approach using the ILS of Runway 23L, with an expected landing runway of 23R. then realised rather late tht they were now on the ILS path so this must be 23L - wrong runway - and they better go around. Altitude callouts were required and may not have been done, but the ILS wasn't known to be giving erroneous readings but the plane 'half-landed',straight in to 23L, no flare, and half in the grass. Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.61.11.230 (talk) 21:25, 4 January 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]. 32 Avenue Du Gresivaudan, Meylan, Isere, 38700. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. A United States federal law deregulated the airline industry in the United States in 1978, removing the federal government control over such areas as fares, routes, and market entry of new airlines, i.e the Airline Deregulation Act of 1978. (Ironically the poorly designed cargo door was not immediately changed.). with his crew that he had requested several times to have Gilbert, Reichel and Walsh flew the Night Owl route on October 31 as a back up crew. If you found this video to be interesting, be sure to subscribe as there is a new video every Saturday. Norton Air Force Base, this time period typifies the normal reaction time of Even sadder is the fact that all four of those major air Here is an excerpt from the "Aeronautical Decision Making Cockpit Resource Management" report describing the flight data recorder findings: There's no indication they are having a disagreement of any kind during the landing phase or minutes before it. Western Airlines Flight 2605 Crash With CVR (Cockpit Voice Recorder). Page contents not supported in other languages. The fact that Reichel didn't call out altitude may not have mattered although it was something he was assigned to do but doesn't necessarily mean this caused the accident or that the crew was unaware of their altitude: - unsigned contribution at 20:24 by 68.33.74.40, split out as new para at 20:30 and amended at 20:32 by 173.120.246.108 (unsigned contributions), 25 December 2019, The crew sounded wide awake to me. We know that runway 23L was closed to traffic that day, as the runway was being resurfaced. Flight 2605 remains the deadliest air accident to have occurred in Mexico City. Les rgles de l'aviation de base dcouragent de longues priodes de dur tirer vers le haut. USER_MINI_PROFILE. The sad thing about this accident is that not one of It might be fake, but then with it being a non-US crash, it might have leaked out? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpQWYdByNSg, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1DlBRS0PiE. A July 19th, 1989 United DC-10 crash was caused by an engine failure which damaged the hydraulic system and reduced control to a point that the pilots could utilize only engine power to prepare the aircraft for an emergency landing. In that accident investigators warned of the danger of trusting ILS signals without checking raw height/distance data. Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR, Military Aircraft Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin, Night Photos I can't remember where I read the article, but it was very interesting. Don't have the report but the FAA provides this summary of the investigation: See the following URL for info. Those locks prevent an unbalanced aerodynamic condition in which one wing has more lift than the other. - paragraph added at 15:33, 22 December 2019 (unsigned contribution) by 173.120.214.124, From the publication DOT/FAA/PM-86/46 "Aeronautical Decision Making - Cockpit Resource Management" investigator observations within 24 hours of the accident: - paragraph added at 22:43 (and amended 22:44 and 22:45 x2), 29 December 2019 (unsigned contribution) by 173.153.184.130, "Main electrical wires to the approach lighting system and VAst for 23 left were observed to be disconnected. This contributor has read transcripts that start at and include the first signifigant contacts in Mexican airspace but I do not have access to the entire CVR which presumably is near 3 hours in length. Accident, incident and crash related photos, Air to Air A final point he makes concerning the catastrophe is difficult to disagree with: it was much easier to just blame the pilots for the accident because dead men tell no tales. It has been said that the crew was in a strong disagreement, and that the pilot continued the landing in spite of first officer strong disagreement. port and the hassle he usually received from the air traffic LAST WORDS ON FLIGHT: BRACE CHARLES! Western 2605 was a crash in Mexico City that killed 72 people. Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more. I replied to one post below that had the time of day wrong concerning the accident. For more information, please see our He was concerned about their work and The CVR has no indication of strong disagreement. Quote copyedited at 21:28, 4 January 2020 (unsigned contribution) by 73.61.11.230: All of these accidents had some common human factors involvement. The CVR is described as sustaining damage in this report, DOT/FAA/PM-86/46 "Aeronautical Decision Making -Cockpit Resource Management": "The voice recorder was recovered from the wreckage; however, the unit had been pierced. Western Airlines 2605 is a crash that sticks out in my mind as one of the most mysterious accidents of all time, as comparatively little about the accident itself has been released to the public. - paragraph split at 01:17, 1 December 2019 (unsigned contribution) by 173.153.15.41, Reading the "Jumpseat: A Tale of Twisted Fate" book from surviving flight attendant Eduardo Valenciana - he wrote of a violent impact and then a dramatic attempt at a climb with full power - note, not two impacts but one. the flight path in reaction to the unstable localizer course." [ARCHIVED THREAD] - Western Airlines Flight 2605 CVR Recording October 31, 1979, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnWwyVT-nEA. More importantly pilot errors occured. Its a red herring to say they landed on the wrong runway. The final moments of the pilots will make your hair stand on end. Other entries are my opinions as well. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm. and our Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos. . The plane just went all the way through to the closed runway. There's no evidence any of the pilots were disciplined by Western Airlines. - para break moved, + para amended, by 173.120.246.108 (unsigned contribution), at 20:30, 25 December 2019, - section created at 22:08, 25 December 2019 (unsigned contribution) by 173.120.246.108. 1.5K. The event is the third-deadliest aviation accident on Mexican soil after the crashes of two Boeing 727s: the 1969 crash of Mexicana de Aviacin Flight 704 and that of Mexicana de Aviacin Flight 940 in 1986. I would think so. A key result of the engine detachment and hydraulic failure was the atypical slat retraction of the DC-10 in these circumstances. Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries, Airport Overviews https://www.upi.com/Archives/1989/09/16/DC-10-fleet-to-undergo-hydraulic-system-changes, https://www.designnews.com/aerospace/designed-disaster-dc-10-airliner-part-4, https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1979/08/04/engineer-balks-at-changes-in-critical-dc10-systems, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_DC-10, https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a205115.pdf Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.153.142.87 (talk) 00:18, 18 January 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]. Flight 2605 remains the deadliest air accident to have occurred in Mexico City. The system was apparently adjusted soon after with help from US authorities, this around the same time the US assisted with producing explicit instructions on the "side step" manouver for Mexico presumably so pilot error won't cause another accident but also (less cynically stated) to make airtravel safer - will need to find sources for this. - paragraph added (unsigned contribution) by 173.120.214.74 at 20:21, 19 December 2019, The ICAO publication doesn't correlate sounds from the CVR to events as they are happening but the CVR recording of the final moments of this accident is probably the most impressionable record of the event the general public has access to and it may be unclear how the accident was unfolding with just the audio.